Vessels seized by the U.S. this week were part of a global 'shadow fleet'
The ceasefire between the
ELISABETH BRAW: Hello.
SUMMERS: You are an expert on so-called shadow vessels. Would you describe the ships that were seized this week as shadow vessels?
BRAW: So the ships that
SUMMERS: So for those of us who are not experts, what do these kinds of vessels look like? So if I were to spot one in the ocean, what might I see?
BRAW: You'd see a normal vessel, which is why it's so maddening, really. So these are normal vessels. They are just mostly very old. When they were supposed to have been retired and scrapped, they were instead sold on to people who operate in the shadows. And they essentially have a second life - a retirement life, as it were - transporting sanctioned oil, for the most part, sanctioned goods, other cargo as well. And they do so to and from countries like
And what is dangerous about them is that you can't tell from looking from afar whether it's a shadow vessel or not, and you can't actually be sure that the ship is where it's supposed to be because these ships turn off the maritime equivalent of GPS, so nobody can really know where they are because, of course, they want to hide. So it's all a very subversive business, but it allows sanctioned countries to stay afloat, as it were.
SUMMERS: Yeah. So what problems do shadow vessels pose in international waters? Why is it that the
BRAW: The first problem they pose is really a maritime order problem. So it's like having a ghost driver on the highway driving a rust bucket. So a vessel or lots of vessels whose position you can't really know. And again, they are old which means they are likely to sustain spills, and that is very dangerous if you're in the business of transporting oil. It's very dangerous for that maritime environment. And again, because they don't signal where they are, they are likely to cause accidents by colliding with other ships, and often their crews are not very experienced, and that is a massive problem for the countries that see the most traffic, which is the countries in the
SUMMERS: OK> In a report that came out earlier this week, you wrote, quote, "the shadow fleet is undermining the maritime order more brazenly than ever." What's changed?
BRAW: It is fascinating to see how these vessels change their behavior. So when the shadow fleet first started growing explosively, which is when
SUMMERS: What can affected countries do to combat these shadow fleets?
BRAW: What we're seeing a lot now in the
SUMMERS: We've been speaking with Elisabeth Braw, a senior fellow at the
BRAW: Thank you. Transcript provided by



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